MUNA love ADÉLA and hate AI music

When The FADER caught MUNA backstage at Lollapalooza, the trio were in a contagiously good mood, practicing gratitude and bouncing off each other in our short conversation. Their latest album Dancing On The Wall is the indie pop band’s fourth, and the follow-up to their most commercially successful album to date, MUNA. Equally inspired by M. Gessen’s writings on fascism and new wave synthpop, Dancing On The Wall is more incisive and insistent than its predecessor. It's an “emotional ass synthpop” album with “muscle,” to hear Katie Gavin, Josette Maskin, and Naomi McPherson describe it.

When MUNA took to the T-Mobile Stage a few hours later, they kicked things off with the 1-2 punch of “It Gets So Hot” and “Dancing On The Wall,” and the crowd’s energy stayed just as high throughout their set despite the sticky humidity and glaring sun. Their assured confidence and easy chemistry together was more than apparent; by the time MUNA wound up to “Eastside Girls,” everyone was caught up in a whirlwind of “peak emotions,” as Gavin would put it.

The FADER talked to MUNA about the recording process behind Dancing On The Wall, their respect for ADÉLA and KATSEYE, and more.

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The FADER: Your latest album felt like an evolution coming into this new era. How were you approaching the process versus your last album?

Naomi McPherson: We said, "Goddamn it, we're entering a new era. It's our fourth album. And we're gonna work it out on the damn remix."

Katie Gavin: I think we were kind of working out on the remix. We were honing in on a specific sound that's always been a part of MUNA’s DNA. But especially now that we're playing it live, I can really feel how much it is a dance-forward record, and it's also a very heart-centered record. We were interested in a nonstop exploration of peak emotions. We had the chance to really try to hit the nail on the head, and I feel like we did that.

Jo Maskin: If anything else, it's just the world changed so much since we put out “Silk Chiffon.” And I'm really happy that we grew and changed as people and didn't try to recreate that lightning in a bottle that we had with that song. It's just a different time, you know, and I'm glad that we changed with the time.

Gavin: That's what you have to do, you have to keep it moving.

How would you describe this new era in a single sentence?

McPherson: Emotional ass synth pop.

Gavin: Yeah, emotional ass synth pop is very good. I would also say like, real as fuck. Real as fuck with a lot of muscle. There's a lot of strength and confidence that frankly comes with the time that we've done this and knowing that we're kind of an amazing band.

McPherson: Secular worship music.

Gavin: Oh, ADÉLA is playing right now!

What's your favorite ADÉLA song?

Gavin: Of the moment, I have to say I stan “KGB.” I love a girl who takes a creative risk. But I'm really excited to hear the whole record, I think it's gonna be really special. We all watched Pop Star Academy. It was one of the happiest times of my life. I know that they went through so much and I thank you for your sacrifices. I loved watching the show.

McPherson: It was really fun and I'm sorry about that.

Maskin: I see them and I think, You guys are so fucking strong. You're so strong! I could never do that and anybody who talks shit or does anything to these girls online, fuck you.

McPherson: Leave them alone.

Maskin: Leave them alone! Have you ever worked hard? No. I've never worked that hard.

Gavin: It's emotional playing Lolla because our first Lolla was 2016. We were babies and like, I just saw the girls from Saint Satine, and you see a lot of the people that are starting up and I just want to cuddle all of them.

McPherson: You will survive this.

Gavin: You are amazing. Keep it moving. That seems to be my phrase of the day: Keep it moving.

What’s your favorite song from Dancing On The Wall?

Gavin: My favorite song on the album is “Dancing on the Wall.” It's just the song that I listened to the most when we were making the record. I fought for it as the title track. I think that my whole like career I've been trying to write a song like that feels really euphoric, but it is about this pattern of trying to get love from somebody who can't give it to you. That's been literally the struggle of my life, so writing a song that makes me feel so good to sing about that and that people connect to, that's it for me. You guys might have other songs.

McPherson: For the summer, I'm going to say, “Gets So Hot.” Even though we have a cloudy day today, that song has me in a choke hold, and I'm in the band.

Maskin: I think I'd say “Eastside Girls.” That was like the first song that I feel like we were able to connect with each other again when we were doing it. And we reached a new level of collaboration and as soon as we figured out the hook, we were like, “oh, we can make another record.” So I think it just symbolizes maybe between the three of us, this new era.

What was the hardest song to write?

McPherson: They all came to us in dreams and we recorded them in mere hours so they were all very simple and easy. I can't answer that question really because it was all so easy for us.

Maskin: We're so good, it's so easy.

McPherson: It's just so effortless.

Gavin: We kind of practice like a transcendental kind of recording.

McPherson: We’re channeling.

Maskin: We actually get into a huge bed with three of us and we take giant naps, and then we have probes on top of our head that go into the computer.

Maskin: Yup.

McPherson: They're recording our brainwaves.

Maskin: They're recording our brainwaves. And then we detect the brainwaves and then we make songs.

We're doing a thing where artists blind ask the next person we interview a question. The question we have from Destin Conrad is, "What made you smile today?"

McPherson: Oh, cute.

Gavin: That is cute. Gosh.

Maskin: Naomi texted this morning, “Today is coming, we’re grateful today.” We’re starting on gratitude.

McPherson: I think that's helped me unlock the gratitude frequency for today. If you're able, even if your life is very hard –

Maskin: And I thought, “I'm sorry God. I'm sorry for being so ungrateful.”

Gavin: And he smiled.

McPherson: I said, “please forgive me," and then God smiled.

Can I ask what perfume you guys wear?

Maskin: I'm not wearing any. Naomi, you should speak on yours.

McPherson: I want to gatekeep my shit so bad but I am gonna give you one. I wear Moss by Perfumer H. They're in London, but they sell it at certain stores in the States. Their scents are amazing. I kinda wanna get their scent Ink that apparently smells like ink on paper. And they have a scent called Charcoal that I really wanna get too. I wear Moss. But I mix some stuff.

Maskin: Naomi started making deodorant and I'm wearing deodorant by Naomi.

Gavin: I am as well. More on that later.

Maskin: Stay tuned.

Does it work?

All: Yes!

McPherson: Yes it works. I’m creating a product that works!

What’s a music trend going on right now that you absolutely hate?

Gavin: I could speak more on what I love – I don't even know enough about what's going on right now. I'm just loving the chords that people are playing right now. I feel like Charli's album has some amazing grunge rock-like notes. And the Olivia [Rodrigo] album too. I was gonna say the album Whip-Smart by Liz Phair, but then I realized that that's literally from the 90s, but I've just been listening to it a ton right now. I think there's some really cool harmony in that Liz Phair album, but I just feel like the kids are getting grungy in a way that I think is wonderful.

McPherson: We're guitar players, so we're happy guitars are back. Also, fuck AI music, it’s some of the... I'm trying not to say, “the gayest shit ever.”

Maskin: The only thing you should be using AI for is figuring out if your workout split is meant for tour.

Gavin: Is that what you're doing?

McPherson: We vehemently oppose generative AI and the effects that it has on people and their communities and these fucking horrible data centers. I'm not going to say what I think should happen to them. For reasons of not getting put on a list that we're probably already on. But that song is stuck in my head. You know that one song, “RUBBERZ?” That's like, [sings] money talk is much louder now. Someone played us that song yesterday and it's been stuck in my fucking head ever since.